Stitches & Picks S1:Ep 8 - Mental Health Entrepreneurship and Side Hustles
Watch the YouTube video version above or listen to the podcast below!
Episode 8 - Mental Health Entrepreneurship and Side Hustles Video and Podcast Transcript
[This transcript has been lightly edited to ensure readability]
Dave Dougherty:
Hey, guys, what's going on? I just wanted to quick jump in here and do an intro before the intro. In this particular episode, we get into mental health. And so, if that's going to be, you know, difficult to listen to, or, you know, triggering in any way, feel free to skip this one, and we'll see you in the next episode. For anybody else who is going to continue to listen to this, you know, we're by no means mental health experts, we just wanted to share our journey.
We shot this in support of Mental Health Awareness Month, which is May here in the U.S. So, you know, we hope by sharing our story we could help shed some light on some different perspectives or, you know, different techniques that we found useful for us. You know, and if you know of anybody that needs help, or you need help yourself, we've included some links that you could find helpful.
And you know, don't be afraid to go seek help. Yeah, please do so. So yeah, I hope you find this helpful. The show notes will have links to things down in the description, we'll have stuff, and I'll put stuff towards the end of the video as well.
So, see you later. Bye.
Kristen Juve:
- I'm Kristen.
Dave Dougherty:
- I'm Dave.
Kristen Juve:
- And today's topic is mental health. Let's start with checking. How are you doing Dave, and how's BGO?
Dave Dougherty:
- I like how your announcer your voice.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah. I worked on it real hard.
Dave Dougherty:
- So, BGO is going well. I'm just continuing the grind of video editing and getting different ideas out there. So, I've been playing around with TikTok, I think since the last time we recorded an episode.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah, TikTok.
Dave Dougherty:
- It's been interesting. It's been interesting. But the reach for the videos, which I've been developing this idea around Practice Fridays, where it's literally just something that I'm playing at night, at like, you know, 9:00 or 10:00 at night, during my practice routine. And just one little exercise, and I'll record it and put it up and see what happens.
And the reception on TikTok is actually way better than I thought it would be, you know when you compare it to Instagram. So, I don't know if it's just the algorithm or whatever, but you know, I'm learning, I'm trying something new out. So, that's been interesting.
And thinking about how we can repurpose some of the other stuff that we've done, you know, last year, you know, shorter videos to get all the equity out of it.
Kristen Juve:
- Totally.
Dave Dougherty:
- But... Yeah. So how about you?
Kristen Juve:
- Smart move. I've actually been playing with TikTok as well, but that's about all I've done. I haven't watched TikTok enough where people that I'm following are talking about the algorithms, and talking about how like, initially, when you get on and you start producing videos, you apparently get this massive reach, and then suddenly they drop you off. So, I'm interested to see if that kind of plays out.
I definitely had one video that went like…got them...I had like 1,700 views. For me, that's like a ton. I was like, "What, this is insane." It was a Friday afternoon. So, I was wondering if that had something to do with it, or it was also just the fact that I was like a new creator, and they're trying to boost me.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah, it would be interesting.
Kristen Juve:
- So, yeah, I think there'll be a lot more learnings as they go on. And of course, I don't have the content like you do to repurpose, and kind of like cut down or whatever. So, right now I was really enjoying just like authentically showing up on the app, and then just doing the recording, because I didn't have to have a perfect backdrop, I didn't have to have this or that.
I was like, "I just want to talk about stitch markers. I just want to talk about yarn. By the way, I'm giving away a bunch of yarn, blah, blah, blah." Like, and it was just kind of fun. And I actually finally found like a more of… Even though my community is...I think I have 20 followers or something. Like I've actually found people who are really cool, and I'm actually like really surprised. Because when I first started just looking through TikTok and seeing my knitting community, I was kind of off-put, not by everybody, but by some creators.
And I was like, "This is just content for content sake, and not like..." there wasn't a point to it. So, I was like, "I don't want to come on here…" And I started doing content that was for content's sake because I didn't know what I was doing, I wanted to play with the videos. But now, I'm at a point where I'm like, "Oh, I actually want to produce content that's interesting to me, not just for content sake, not just because I'm posting."
So, I haven't posted in actually a little while because of that.
Mental health and Kristen's journey with PMDD
Kristen Juve:
- So, I haven't done much of anything, which is why our topic is mental health, today. My like "business," other than playing with TikTok, has been at almost a complete standstill. You know this, but I actually have a disorder called PMDD.
Look it up if you're curious, but it is particular to menstruating individuals. So, it actually affects my life, like my ability to function. And it's, in particular, a very interesting timeframe for me in my life, because I'm postpartum.
So, I have a 19-month-old kiddo right now. And apparently, when you stop nursing, your hormones then start shifting again, and you can take like 12 months to get your hormones back to where they "were." And before I even was this postpartum, I already had PMDD. So, it's been a f***ing roller coaster, and I'm finally figuring out additional tools to cope, one of which is medication, which I had not previously really done.
Like, it just wasn't something that I necessarily needed, because I can still kind of cope. So, I know you're passionate about mental health, but mental health shows up in a bunch of different ways, in a bunch of different people, for a bunch of different reasons. And which is why it's an interesting topic, and also highly, highly important, especially when you have your typical 9 to 5, and then also something you're doing on the side, because you can totally be wiped out from something as simple as doing your laundry, much less getting social media posts and doing your business plan.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. Yeah, and I think, I mean, obviously, I'm not going to try to relate to…
Kristen Juve:
- No. And I don't expect you to.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah, but it is…
Kristen Juve:
- But mental health, there's still little parts.
Dave Dougherty:
- Of course, you know, and I'm just saying like... I transitioned incorrectly there. You know, in certain conversations I've had with some friends, you know, we've talked about, you know, either wanting to start something, having something on the side, or even looking for a new job, right, and just how there's never really a good time for it, and if there is a good time for it, it's probably because you were let go and you have time.
Kristen Juve:
- Right. And then there's a whole other set of things.
Dave Dougherty:
- But then you're stressed and pressured and whatever else. Yeah.
Kristen Juve:
- The anxiety.
Dave Dougherty:
- So, you know, there's the cliche phrase, I'm going to butcher it, but the…what was it? The best time to have done something was yesterday, the next second-best time is now.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- And yeah, I think that totally rings true, you know, especially with, you know, having little kids, that's hard enough in and of itself.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- And I think anybody in the northern hemisphere, you know, coming out of winter a bit, you know, it's finally, as we record this, it's starting to get a little bit warmer. So, there's hope.
Kristen Juve:
- Right.
Dave Dougherty:
- And hope can be a dangerous thing.
Kristen Juve:
- It can also be a really great thing.
Dave Dougherty:
- It can be, yeah. But also I think just everybody dealing with their own struggles, you know, too, with either, you know, if you have, like, you know, a medical depression or some kind of…some other thing that affects you, that's definitely something you have to acknowledge and account for. And I think when this episode releases, it might be Mental Health Awareness Month, so we'll leave some resources at the end of the episode...
Kristen Juve:
- Absolutely. I've got a bunch of ones that are particular to PMDD, which I think we should totally include, so we'll definitely do that.
Starting now and not putting too much pressure on yourself!
Kristen Juve:
-It's interesting that you bring up “the starting now,” because I think what's hard too, is like, when you're in that, whether it's depression or anxiety, or wherever, you can put unnecessary pressure on yourself.
And I think what I hear and when I hear you talk about like starting now, I don't hear you say, "Put pressure on yourself for no f***ing reason." You're saying, "Start where you can." Like, if you're feeling good enough right now, just do a little something. And it's like, it's so interesting to have gone through the last, I don't know how many months, I've been struggling, and I still try to do a little by little, right?
Like when I could do something, I did, and I was really like...that's why I appreciate you, is like I was on…I came to the table and I was like, "Hey, I haven't done anything, because I've been completely wiped out this week. I have no ability, I've been severely depressed, and I have barely been able to take care of my kids. Like, I have a very supportive spouse who like obviously picks up my slack and for around the house and stuff, but that doesn't mean that I can do like my side stuff.”
So, it's like…this is my very roundabout way of being like, this is not a conversation, I think, and I know you totally agree with this. It's like, put pressure on yourself, push through. It's acknowledge…And it's so...it's way harder to acknowledge than it is to actually... Like it's actually like sit down and do it, and like have a therapist, and like… Even when you have a therapist, and you're learning all the tools, it's really hard to be like, "Yeah, I need medication. Yeah, I need help. Like, I need something else, whether it's medication or a supplement or whatever."
And that's all scary, too, because then you're like, "Well, I don't know what the side effects are going to be, and I don't know what I'm going to be like with that," and then you start to distrust yourself. And like, there's a lot of pieces to that. But I don't know, I guess my hope is like in us talking about this, it gives somebody permission to not push themselves, but to just forgive themselves when they're going through something, whether it's actual mental health or just a tough day.
And that when they do feel better, they do something because that actually makes them happy.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. Yeah. And I was thinking the other day about how much, you know, we discuss how much we dislike the kind of hustle until you drop culture kind of stuff, and why is that something that has become so popular? But to me, it seems like it's really popular with anybody who isn't in a relationship yet, or is using it as some kind of a coping thing, right?
Kristen Juve:
- You're not wrong. We live in a society where you get rewarded for that, and people use it as a distraction.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. You know, anybody I think who has a family or, you know, has layers of things going on, is like, "I don't have time for that. I have X amount of time to do what I can do," and that's what you go for. Right? You slowly build it out.
The Messy Middle of Transition From Job to Content Entrepreneur & Doing What You Need to Not Burn Out
Dave Dougherty:
- And that's one of the things that I like about, you know, when we first talked about maybe starting this thing, the focus on the time between having your Anchor thing, and potentially having the full-on, you know, solopreneur thing or, you know, partnership or whatever, is that messy middle bit, you know.
I think we covered in the first episode, where it's that you hear all these people going, "Yeah, I hated my job, I wanted something else, so then I started this blog," or, "Started this ecommerce thing, and look at me now." And like, there's a lot in between there, and there's a whole journey that you have to account for. And you know, if you don't have a relationship where, you know, the other person picks up slack, that's going to be another unique, you know, fighting thing.
Kristen Juve:
- That's… Yes, absolutely.
Dave Dougherty:
- Or, you know, for me, I'm able to do as much as I do, because this is what I enjoy doing. I enjoy creating, I am compelled to create. So, instead of…
Kristen Juve:
- It fills up your cup.
Dave Dougherty:
- Instead of sitting and watching TV, this is what I do.
Kristen Juve:
- I'm guilty of sitting and watching TV. I really like it.
Dave Dougherty:
- It's necessary, everybody's got their thing, you know?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah. I mean, like right now I try to do it in moderation, because it doesn't make me happy, it doesn't fill up my cup. It does distract me, and it is helpful in that way, especially when sometimes all I can do is stare at a wall because I'm depressed or tired or whatever. But that doesn't mean it actually makes me happier.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. And then when people ask me what I do watch on TV, it's, you know, my wife and I will watch shows like "Witcher" or something, but it takes us like three months to finish an entire season…
Kristen Juve:Kristen Juve:
- Totally.
Dave Dougherty:
- …just because of timing and whatever else. But then for me, like I've gotten really into F1 racing, which was the last thing I thought I would get into. But yeah, I will watch all the practice rounds, I will watch all the qualifying rounds. And everybody who just thinks, "Wow, it's a bunch of cars making some turns," it is super technical. Like once you learn the rules and how, like the physics affects everything, it becomes really interesting.
Kristen Juve:
- You have yet to convince me.
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, that's fine. I'm not…
Kristen Juve:
- To each their own.
Dave Dougherty:
- Exactly. I understand, this is totally a thing. And, you know, I didn't think I would get into it until I tried it a little bit. And so, this will be the first or second full season that I've watched. But yeah, thank god for technology, I have it recorded, so I don't have to wake up at 4 a.m. for, you know, a European race.
So…
Kristen Juve:
- That is kind of the blessing of the age that we're in right now. I'm like, "Oh, I want to distract myself. Oh, I can watch the show that I actually want to really watch," versus just turning it on. I recently heard…I'm going to mess up her name, so there's these two sisters that wrote the book "Burnout," and it's Amelia and Emily.
And their last name, I think I'm going to mispronounce, so I'm not… or I don't remember exactly, so I'm not going to say it. But I recently heard one of the sisters, Amelia, speak and she was talking about how...she's like, "TV is great. TV is great as a distraction. If you just need to numb out for a little bit…" She's like, "By all means, do that." And I've never heard anybody say that before when it comes to mental health.
They were like, "No, don't watch TV, like that's not going to help you." And it's like, true, it doesn't help. Like, big picture, does not actually like make you heal, right?
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Kristen Juve:
- But if your coping mechanism is just distract for a little bit just so you can get some space from whatever it is that's ailing you, whether it's a fight with your spouse, or a little bit of depression, or a COVID exposure that your child had for the sixth time, and you're ready to pull your hair out because you now have to have them home for another week, a little distraction isn't a bad thing as long as you cope with the feelings that you're having.
And so, I really liked the way that she phrased it, because I was like, "Oh, I have permission from someone who's like a doctor, who's done extensive study and research on burnout and understanding the human psyche, that I can just occasionally just distract myself and that's okay." And like that permission, we need to be giving more permission to people in general about just being human.
That's my takeaway from a lot of different things. I don't think we give people enough like permission to be human, which really hurts all of our mental health. Like hands down.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah. Well, I think that's with the workplace cultures and all that within the U.S. specifically.
Kristen Juve:
- Yes.
Dave Dougherty:
- It is bad. And it is on the whim of your manager being, you know, a progressive thinker.
Kristen Juve:
- Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- At least, you know, if you're in traditional organizations, right, so. Yeah, and just taking time for yourself and realizing that, you know, maybe for my development plan, I don't need to have, you know, the craft of whatever it is you're doing, right, business intelligence, or, you know, marketing analysts or whatever, you know, whatever it is you do for your day job.
But why don't you put physical health or mental health or nutrition as your development goal?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- This is something that I did, and you know, my managers, the last one and the current one are good enough to say, "Sure, go ahead."
Kristen Juve:
- I'm kind of sad that you just got a, "Sure," instead of like a, "Yes! Like, yeah, you're being a whole human being, and you're like making sure that you're taking care of yourself, and that in turn is going to help us as a company."
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, everybody comes to that realization on their own pace, right, I think.
Kristen Juve:
- I know. But it's so frustrating. If we do not take care of our humans and ourselves as humans, we are going to hurt the company. I mean, and that should not be the f***ing reason why we do it in the first place, but that is a byproduct.
Dave Dougherty:
- I think that's where having small businesses or if you're, you know, the solopreneur, or the side hustle, whatever it is, these kinds of thoughts are a lot easier to come by, because it's you and you are tied into what you are experiencing, right?
Kristen Juve:
- That's true.
Dave Dougherty:
- Or if you have somebody who can look at you and go, "You need to slow down," all right, because they know you really well, and they can tell that you're pushing, then yeah, that kind of thought, you know, comes up, right? And especially with, you know, the stuff that we've consumed with the podcasts or the, you know, the stuff that we took inspiration from, you know, for this having the lifestyle business, I think that's going to be just more and more and more of a thing, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Especially with the, you know… They call it the “Great Resignation,” but I don't know, I kind of liked the “Great Rethink” as a…
Kristen Juve:
- Oh, I like that, I haven't heard that before.
Dave Dougherty:
- I forget who came up with that. But I like it because it's a reevaluation of where everybody is and what they actually want because, you know, I was talking to my aunt the other day and she was talking about everybody going back into the office and everybody doing this, that, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, "No, you got to look at our generation."
Like our…you know, the lie of being whatever you want, or you know, just go to school and do whatever you want, every major thing or every major milestone in our life has been accompanied by some major world event, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah. Yes.
Dave Dougherty:
- So, you know, entering into high school was 9/11. And all of high school was, you know, Iraq and Afghanistan, and then the Great Recession for college, starting families with the pandemic. So, okay, yeah, you tell me what worked for you in the 1960s works for me now. No. No. This is a new thing.
Kristen Juve:
- Right.
Dave Dougherty:
- And yeah, I know, I'm sure this episode is going to have so many comments, which, hey, cool, bring it on. But I think, you know, this kind of thing is important to discuss, because it is, it's bringing the whole person, whether it's, you know... whether you have a mental thing or not, or whether or not you have a particular medical ailment or not, or whether or not you're even sure of what you want to do, right?
If you're still just feeling out, "Hey, this might be something that I want to try," just go try it, just go do it, see what happens, you know.
Kristen Juve:
- So, it's interesting, because as I'm hearing you talk too, I'm thinking about like, one of the draws that I've seen a lot of people... like why they're drawn to entrepreneurship is because they don't "fit the mold" of these highly compartmentalized corporate America, where you have to only bring a particular version of yourself to work.
And they don't want to do that, understandably and respectfully I totally, like I support that. But if, let's say, and I think I'm coming from a place of like white privilege as I'm thinking about this too, of like, if that's not the case anymore, will we have fewer entrepreneurs? What's the draw for entrepreneurship? Is that the main one?
I mean, I can think of a couple of other reasons why I'd probably want to do it, but like, it is interesting that it's been historically, I really mean draws, if we all have to make a living, we don't all have to work for someone else.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. Well, and I do...so I have a friend who I was talking to, and they're like, "Yeah, I've structured my entire career goal with schooling and with everything else to reach a certain point, and I've done it now."
Kristen Juve:
- Now what?
Dave Dougherty:
- And yeah…
Kristen Juve:
- Now what?
Dave Dougherty:
- He's like, "It's not what I thought it would be, I think you're right." Yeah, so it's kind of be careful what you wish for.
Kristen Juve:
- There's actually a book, I haven't read it, but I heard a podcast, I think it was almost… I think the podcast was "Freakonomics," because I listened... I used to listen to that one a lot. Where there's the guy who I think his entire goal in life was to like write a book, and then he did it, and then he was like, "Well, now what?"
And so, then he wrote a book about, like, now what? And it was like, what do you do? And he talked about how...when they interviewed him, he talked about how, like, you have to constantly keep putting goals out in front of yourself, otherwise you don't feel like you have something bigger than yourself that you're a part of. And it's interesting to think about that in like a mental health respect too, especially with what I've been through recently.
Because I'm like, I was just trying to survive. My mindset was survival. It was like, how do I make sure that I'm feeding myself and my kid, and that I'm making sure that her laundry is clean, so she can go to daycare? And it wasn't like, "Hey, I can do this thing," or, "Hey, I'm so grateful for this thing." Because I couldn't observe, I couldn't like step back and think strategically.
I couldn't address my bigger needs, I had to address my more...my very immediate needs. And it's just really interesting to think about… I don't know, I feel like I'm on a total tangent, now I'm not even sure where I'm at.
The First day of first grade foreshadowing the rest of Dave's life and career
Dave Dougherty:
- So, I'm going to circle back to one point because like, one of the favorite stories that my dad likes to say with me, is on the first day of first grade, right, we lived close enough that he would walk up to the school and pick me up and we'd walk back, it was only like half a mile.
And so, on the first day, he's like, "So, how was it? You know, tell me about your day." And apparently, my response was, "Who came up with this eight hours a day thing? I want to go home at lunch." And that has kind of foreshadowed the rest of my life.
Kristen Juve:
- Why do we need to be structured the way that we are?
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah. Who came up with this?
Kristen Juve:
- Because that's how the system was devised.
Dave Dougherty:
- Why is this the way that it is? Why is nobody asking any of these questions? Why is everybody else just accepting it?
It doesn't make sense to me. I mean, there are good reasons for why people do, you know, what they do, or focus on the day job. You know, for some people, that is absolutely what they want and that's great, good for them.
Kristen Juve:
- Routine and ritual are really important for mental health for some people too.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- And good for them.
Kristen Juve:
- I totally agree with that.
Dave Dougherty:
- I mean, we need people like that, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- There's going to be a subset that I would include myself in, who are less sure of that.
Kristen Juve:
- Totally.
Dave's journey with anxiety, learning you're not alone, and developing new routines so you can be successful
Dave Dougherty:
- So, you know, and with my own things with mental health, I had to focus more on those things before being at the point now where I can sit down and crank out a bunch of content. Right?
And because I know my processes, I know whether or not…
Kristen Juve:
- I thought that was a really vague statement, would you like to go a little bit more in depth?
Dave Dougherty:
- What do you mean?
Kristen Juve:
- Those things? And like…
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, yeah, okay, so I was going to get there. But…
Kristen Juve:
- Okay. I think you should just not bury the lead, that's all I'm saying.
Dave Dougherty:
- Okay, that's fair. So… No, but I think there's taking stock in where you were versus where you are now. Right?
Kristen Juve:
- That's right, yeah. No, that's a huge piece of it.
Dave Dougherty:
- So, because like for me, the mental health piece of it was a huge focus for the last like six years, up until, well, about three years ago, it really wasn't much of a thing for me anymore. And, you know, I had panic attacks while I was in grad school, where I was sitting in class and for no reason I was just like, "I have to get out of here."
But I forced myself to stay in the chair.
Kristen Juve:
- Jesus, that’s a lot of restraint.
Dave Dougherty:
- And part of it too, is, you know, I've told my guitar students, I've told a lot of people that, you know, that I've mentored, like, if you are nervous, it is because you care, and you should probably jump towards that nervousness. Right?
And so that's one of those things…
Kristen Juve:
- There's nervousness, and there are panic attacks, though.
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, but so yeah, that's where the sitting down and figuring out, okay, why, like, what's going on for that? And for some...you know, when they first happened, I had no idea what it was.
Kristen Juve:
- Oh, I know, I've had a bunch too, and like, the first time you're like, "I'm dying." Your brain actually is like, "I think I'm dying." And you're like, "I don't think I'm dying, but I think I'm dying," it's a whole…
Dave Dougherty:
- So, I was pretty close too with my first one, actually, because it happened while I was suffering from heatstroke.
Kristen Juve:
- Oh, God.
Dave Dougherty:
- And so, I ended up in the ER to get, you know, IVs with heatstroke, and…
Kristen Juve:
- That's completely understandable. That you would have a panic attack during that too, because then your body is like, freaking out. I've had heat exhaustion.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah, so that sort of kicked it off. But for me, the thing that I realized, right, like trying to go through that, I've always taken inspiration from other people, you know, that have gone through things. And I discovered The WTF Podcast with Marc Maron, and then I discovered Marc Maron's comedy. And that became a huge relief for me, because it was, "Oh, I'm not the only one," right, like listening to his interviews with other comedians.
There was one with Stephen Colbert, where Colbert said that, you know, while he was doing improv stuff, he was having panic attacks so bad that he would lay on the couch backstage, like curled up in the fetus position and be like, "All right, you're on in five," he'd get up, do the bit, come back, lay back down. And I'm like, "Okay, so I'm not alone. These are all high-functioning, high-achieving individuals, so cool. There's some hope here."
Kristen Juve:
- I think, it was Brené Brown that said that… Oh, she has a book called, "It's not just me." And it's like, literally, if we can all relate on various things that happen to us or how we process things, like that is the anecdote to feeling that way.
It's one of the anecdotes to it.
Dave Dougherty:
- There's a great podcast from "The Harvard Business Review" called Anxious Achiever, and it's all about people who have started businesses or are CEOs who suffered from anxiety or depression or mental health stuff. And there's some fascinating interviews with people who, you know… There was one guy, it jumps out my mind, I forget which one it was, but he flew out to Vegas for a conference, he stepped one foot into the conference and just went, "Nope," and flew right back home.
And, you know, he… Yeah, I mean, he just felt it and went on with it and created some things around it to help him get over it and deal with it. And for me, like not only just seeing that I wasn't alone, but then also just addressing it and saying, "Yeah, I have something going on right now."
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Was a big help, but then focusing on: "Okay, I shouldn't have caffeine past a certain point."
Kristen Juve:
- Oh my God, thank you for bringing this up.
Dave Dougherty:
- "I shouldn't eat past a certain part of the day so that I get enough sleep, because if I don't get enough sleep, then I'm going to be anxious."
Kristen Juve:
- Yes.
Dave Dougherty:
- You know, so like the days where I only get three, four hours of sleep now, I know enough to know that my anxiety will be triggered because I'm exhausted. And the reason I feel disgusting is because I'm exhausted.
Kristen Juve:
- Yes.
Dave Dougherty:
- But it took a really long time to figure that out and change the diet a little bit, and, you know, again, focus on the health, focus on all of the hard things. Deal with hard work with that.
Kristen Juve:
- That is a hard work, yeah. And it's so interesting you bring this up, so like, everybody, when they hear about PMDD, like doctors are always like or nurses are always, like, "Change your diet. Get lots of exercise." You're like, "F**k you. I like chocolate. I'm going to keep drinking my coffee. And I'm going to keep having cocktails. Like, no, f**k you."
And it's like, early on in life, I would have never given up the amount of drinking that I did do. Because that was like my social outlet, that was what was socially acceptable. And now I look back and go, "Oh my God, now I realize why so many those things happened to me and why I was in the mental state that I was." Like, between alcohol, which was depressant, and sugar and… And I still eat chocolate, I still drink coffee, but I know that I can have one cup of coffee a day, and I like to have it in the morning.
And I know that I can eat chocolate till a certain time, whatever. And I like to stick to those things. I was talking to my nephew a little while back, and he's in college. I was brought back for me to that lifestyle that I was in at that time, and I was like, "Hey, kid, like, mental health is important.
I just want to bring up like if you're not sleeping eight hours a night, if you're not eating three square meals a day…" which is a thing for me, because I won't always eat…
Dave Dougherty:
- I've never suffered from that.
Kristen Juve:
- No, it's so interesting, it shows up in different people. But like, when I don't eat, I actually feel more control, because my anxiety then somehow saciates. And like…
Dave Dougherty:
- Interesting.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah, I never…I don't have an eating disorder, and I will "force" myself to eat. But it's like hormone related for me, so it's like some weeks I'm like, food is just… And other weeks I'm like, "Give me everything." But like I went through all these things with him, and he was like, "Yeah, okay, I hear you." Like I'm sure he heard me, but I don't think he'll hear me until like he's lived more of this stuff.
So, it's…
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, that's the funny thing about college, right? Like I was…
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- A couple of weeks ago I was invited back to do the SEO presentation a third time at the university. And it was still, you know, Zoom call or whatever else, but I was getting nothing from the audience, which, you know, that was fairly typical, like that's okay, that's part of the territory. But you know, I stopped and asked the professors like, "So how beyond the normal glaze are we right now? Are we good? Are we…?"
Because, you know, you do those presentations, and it's like, I'm going to give you everything, but I know that only like 1% or 2% of you are going to do anything with this.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- But I'm still going to present it because I don't know how it's going to manifest, you know, 5 years from now or 10 years from now.
Kristen Juve:
- Totally.
Dave Dougherty:
- Whatever, right?
Kristen Juve:
- So, this is the takeaway, if you are, like, just out of college or in college, and you're like, "My life is fucked up, and I don't know what to do about it," start with your eating habits, your sleeping habits and your alcohol consumption. Start there, things might change drastically for you.
Optimizing your relationships and keeping relationships that are positive
Dave Dougherty:
- So, yeah. And then for me, the other thing too, is just cutting…there were some individuals where it was like, you're more stressed than it's worth. Have you…?
Kristen Juve:
- Oh, people. Like cutting people out?
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah, I mean, not being brutal about it, right?
Kristen Juve:
- No.
Dave Dougherty:
- Because relationships kind of naturally ebb and flow and you drift apart and whatever, especially after college, right, you just kind of tend to depart from certain people. But…
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Do you subscribe to that idea of, you know, you're the sum of X number of people around you?
Kristen Juve:
- No. But I do subscribe to the belief that the people that you keep around you have a very large impact on you. I guess that's a different way of saying that. But it's not like they equate to me, I'm my own person. It's hard because I am someone who is a… How do I phrase this?
Like a diagnosed fixer. Which I think has been, it can be a weakness and a strength. It's been a weakness and strength my entire, my entire life. I've been highly independent, and I like to go in and fix things for people. Like the fact that I'm not a nurse or a doctor is kind of astounding to me, because that's kind of the mentality that I feel like I embody a lot.
So, I try to step in and fix things for people all the time. Which creates this very interesting dynamic in relationships. And I actually am generally more attracted to have relationships and friendships with people who I don't have to fix, and yet I still have some…or, historically, when I'm not doing well mentally, like I try to focus and fix other people, because then I don't have to focus on myself and fix myself.
And that's a piece of it. It's also my conditioning and whatever else too. And I think there's some genetic components as well, like, that's just kind of how the world works. But I definitely have had relationships that ebb and flow, and some have not been a choice for me to disconnect from them, and sometimes it has been. And it sucks, because like, that's a whole another thing, you have to grieve, and that takes an impact on your mental health too, whether like it's something you saw coming or not, and it's hard.
Dave Dougherty:
- And I think it's harder now with social, because, you know…
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah, you have to make a conscious choice sometimes too.
Dave Dougherty:
- You do not get away from people anymore.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah, unless you purposely like unfollow or whatever, or mute or whatever.
Dave Dougherty:
- Mm-hmm.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah. And that's an interesting dynamic, because I feel like going through that stage, at least for us it was still early enough, where if you drifted apart, you drifted apart, and that was fine, right? But now, if you follow somebody, how often do you actually, you know, call your own list? Like, I know, people who do it regularly, but…
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah. I do it on an ad hoc basis, based on what's needed in my... But I definitely have...I mean, I don't know if you find this with people, but I have like a few people that fill my cup. Like I spend time with them, and I am never drained after being with them. And like, I'm not an introvert, but I don't consider myself an extrovert either.
So, like there are times that I will go and hang out with people and I am completely drained afterwards. I still really like them as people. And I still get value out of the relationship, and I imagine they do too, and that's why we continue to have friendship, but they don't fill me up. But then there are just some people that just like feed my soul.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah.
Kristen Juve:
- And that is a whole interesting piece on like mental health too, because it's like, I have to take stock of that and be aware of that when I'm not in a state to like socialize. And then if they're not...most of everybody that I surround myself with is very like, on the mental health train and totally get it. And then like, if I'm like, "Hey..."
I did this to my friend the other day. I was like… And it wasn't because she drains me, it was not, she doesn't drain me. But I was like, "Hey, I just…I'm drained period, I don't have anything left to give this week, I need to reschedule." And she was like, "Thank you for being honest with me." Because I told her exactly what was happening. She's like, "Thank you for being vulnerable." And she's like, "We can actually reschedule, I actually need the time too, for dah, dah, dah reason."
So, I was like, that's exactly the type of friend I want, someone who's going to be like, "Hey, I recognize that you're being completely honest with me and vulnerable," and like, you're allowed to be who you are, and come as you are. And I hope that with the pandemic, that we're transitioning more, and maybe in even like the Anchor gig stuff, we're being more holistic people and getting treated more holistically and allowed to show up more authentically.
And that's not a bad thing. I mean, I feel like there are so many women in particular that I follow on like Instagram, especially like women of color, who are authentically themselves on social and you know exactly what you're getting for their business, when you're ordering from them, or whatever, and they're amazing, and they're kick-ass, and they call it quits when they need to call it quits.
And they are setting an example for everyone else to learn from. And that's exactly how I want to live, I want to live up to like what they're already doing, like, show up when I need to show up for myself. And then…
Your project doesn't have to be forever, nor does it have to be huge money!
Dave Dougherty:
- I was talking to a friend the other day about, you know, starting this thing or having the BGO side or whatever else, and they're like, "Yeah, but you know, are you really going to do that forever?"
I said, "No, it's a creative project, like you know, things will ebb and flow." And I think, you know, if you look at the comparison between American TV versus, you know, British TV, right, American TV is like eight seasons, and the last three seasons are always crap. Like they've gone too far because they're squeezing all the money out of it.
Kristen Juve:
- Or if it's "Grey's Anatomy," it's 18 seasons, and the middle 10 were crap.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. But they were still profitable, so they cranked them out, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Meanwhile, you look at…
Kristen Juve:
- Squeeze the money out.
Dave Dougherty:
- You look at like BBC, and it's like two seasons, three seasons, like they did what they needed to do, and they ended the series.
Kristen Juve:
- Although, there might be an anomaly currently, I am watching "Call the Midwife," and they are on a…I thought it ended, and it really didn't. And I'm starting to wonder if they're really starting to… Like there's an element of like the trueness of the show that is no longer being held true, and it's like, I'm a little sad. They're like scandalizing a little bit more for ratings, so, I'm a little sad.
I know you can totally… I know you watch it too.
Dave Dougherty:
- I've seen probably one season just because of…
Kristen Juve:
- Oh, you have?
Dave Dougherty:
- It's been on in the background as I've gone through the whole area whatever.
Kristen Juve:
- Oh, nice, okay. It's a good show.
Dave Dougherty:
- I can't say that I've actively gone and watched it.
Kristen Juve:
- Wow, you're missing out then.
Dave Dougherty:
- No, no. I can't say that I am. But yeah, I think that's one of the things too where, you know, like, going back to the hustle culture thing, I think with what we're exposed to within American media and all that, especially around side projects and whatever else is, if it doesn't…you know, if you don't start something, and it immediately hockey sticks, and you're immediately on "Shark Tank" or selling $100 million, then it's not worthwhile.
It's like, no, that's false.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Like, you know, that's really nice for whoever that happens to. I mean, sometimes it's an absolute curse that you're that successful that quickly.
Kristen Juve:
- True.
Dave Dougherty:
- But I think for the vast majority of the world, making enough to make ends meet is exactly what people want, because they can focus on other things that bring them happiness, and not just, you know, grind it out or whatever else.
Kristen Juve:
- Yes.
Dave Dougherty:
- And so, I think part of the mental health thing, we said this in some previous episodes of, you know, know your why, know why you're doing it, what you want it to be. And if you don't know that yet, spend some time to think about it before you just jump into, you know, the endless grind of content creation. Because that's been my takeaway from the last, you know, 13 months of having the guitar site live is the, "Okay, I have to launch a video, where's the motivation to do that? Because I have all this other stuff going on, like, you know, quick record something, quick, do it."
What are the things that are going to keep you motivated to do that and keep you motivated to produce when you don't want to?
Kristen Juve:
- Right.
Dave Dougherty:
- Because that's the work. That's the work of it.
Kristen Juve:
- Right. Yeah, and whether you have like a product or a service or whatever, like the marketing of it, the business side of it is the majority of the work. It really is.
Meds can have a positive impact and creating a production schedule that works with all of you throughout the year
Kristen Juve:
- And it's like...it's a good point, it's like, what is your motivation? And I think it's interesting to listen you talk about that too, because, again, like, I'm thinking back on my last couple of weeks especially, my mindset, my motivation has shifted a ton because of starting medication.
I didn't even realize how bad I was, but I had no motivation to do my Anchor gig. Like I would do it, and I showed up, but I was sitting in meetings going, "Why am I here? Like I don't even want to do any of this."
And I did had my prioritized list of things I need to do, and I'd be like, "I don't want to do any of this." I'd still sometimes do it. Like, I knew what I needed to get done. And until there was nothing, there was even less left for like the side stuff. So, even just recognizing at some point that, "Hey, this isn't my normal self, this isn't me, this isn't…I'm struggling right now," and then getting on medication, I'm like, "Oh, I have motivation to do all this stuff now."
And it's coming what feels like naturally, because of the chemical balance. It wasn't like, "Oh, I had to figure out just the way," it was more than that.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right. You know, and it's interesting, because some of my musician friends, they suffer from the seasonal depression.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- And luckily, that's not something that's ever affected me…to date. But it is interesting, because if that is something that you can account for, you know, plan your year out around that. So, if you know December is going to be a downtime, have all your stuff done by, you know, Thanksgiving, if you're in the U.S.
Kristen Juve:
- Totally.
Dave Dougherty:
- Because especially, yeah, if you're designing your own working thing, you should take that into account. Where, "Okay, yeah, I need December off because you know, January I need to hit it hard and February is another down month mentally, so I got to do everything I need to do in January," and you know, whatever, you can map that out, right?
Kristen Juve:
- I'd take that a step further too, and this is coming from my disorder in particular. Like, I know that two weeks at every month that I am going to be completely beholden to something that is not something I can control. So, and I know exactly when that's going to happen, right? So, like I can technically, if things go according to plan, which usually they do, but postpartum is a whole different thing, I can plan out my two weeks of like being productive.
And then if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and then I learned from that and can make adjustments, and just like give myself the permission to be human. And I think that's the other side of that, is like, not only the planning of it, but then if it doesn't go according to plan, that's okay, too. Because like you tried.
And that's…
Dave Dougherty:
- How long did it take you to be okay with that?
Kristen Juve:
- Very, very long time. I didn't get diagnosed until I was 28, 29. And I've had it my entire life. And to the point where like when I was in… And there was...also, it's a newer recognized diagnosis. In the UK, they've actually known about it for much longer.
So, like back when I was a teenager, it was not in the vocabulary of anybody.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Kristen Juve:
- And so, when I experienced at the point where I was...had suicidal ideation and whatnot, no one had any way to help me, and they had no idea what was happening. And in fact, a lot of people get diagnosed as bipolar, because you spend two weeks feeling depressed, anxious, rage anger, severe anxiety, just not yourself.
And then two weeks of feeling amazing. And you're like, "I'm manic." I actually told my mom, I looked at her when I was in high school, I remember this vividly. I was sitting in the front seat of her van, and I looked over and I was like, "I think I'm bipolar." And she was like, "You're not bipolar."
And I was like, "I think I am". And it was over more than 10 years that I lived with this in varying degrees, because the birth control stuff does help some people, not everybody, and it did for me to some degree.
So, it's like, I've lived with it in various forms my entire life and didn't have any understanding that like when I couldn't… I have my own photography business, I didn't realize that this was a part of it. I didn't realize that the reason why I was holding myself back, a part of that was my mental health. I had told myself I wasn't good enough, that I couldn't do this, that I was a failure, dah, dah, dah, dah.
But all of that stuff was because I had no idea of the situation I was actually sitting in, no idea about my mental health, no idea how to cope with it, no idea, no therapy, no medication, no schedules of understanding ebbs and flows, none of that. No wonder it felt awful and hard, and like I couldn't do it.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Defining yourself by what you do and the limitations of that thinking
Kristen Juve:
- That's exactly why I think it's a hugely important topic for us to discuss. Your side business is you, whether we like it or not, what you do is you. I don't think we should define ourselves like that, but it'd be naive to not discuss our…like we've been saying the whole time, us as whole humans in a silo as compared to what we do.
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, I think that's the interesting thing, because, you know, in the music world, it's a: I am a cellist. I'm a guitar player. I am a drummer. And then everybody jokes about how there are certain personalities...
Kristen Juve:
- Right. We have it in every area.
Dave Dougherty:
- And so, it’s like, "Okay, yeah, drummers tend to be this way, bass players tend to be this way." And with a lot of my musician friends who, you know, may have put the instruments down and moved on to other things, during that transitional period, it was a major like identity crisis, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yes.
Dave Dougherty:
- Because it's, since I was 12, I have identified myself as a, you know, bass player, as a drummer, as a violinist, as whatever. And it's an interesting, like, tear down your concept of self and rebuild it. And you have to do that at 28, 29, you know, 30. Whatever time each person goes through that.
But then, you don't hear that in the business side all that much, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Nope.
Dave Dougherty:
- It's always the, "Okay, so what do you do for a job?" "Oh, I do marketing."
Kristen Juve:
- Right.
Dave Dougherty:
- Okay. But we also know when you started talking about you know, strategic stuff, it's, "Oh, such and such company is an engineering company, so, you should expect this, this and this with these types of, you know, cultures within engineering or within...you know, this is a creative agency, not a strategic consulting agency because of the different mindsets of the people."
Well, that's just not true. I mean, everybody has their own particular lens and their own way of thinking, that part of it is absolutely true. But you are what you do, because it's a major portion of your life, right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Now, I don't sleep eight hours a day, but if I did, that's a third of the day. Right?
Kristen Juve:
- I still can't believe you don't sleep eight hours a day. Like I would not be able to survive. I would… Speaking of being anxious or totally off the rails and not being myself, if I did not get like eight hours of sleep a night, I'd…it's not, it doesn't go well.
Dave Dougherty:
- I get five or six. If I get more or less than that, it's bad.
Kristen Juve:
- That's so interesting. Everybody's different, so weird.
Dave Dougherty:
- And you know, it's like, so if a third of your life is sleeping: A) buy a really good mattress, right? If the other third of your life is work, make sure you enjoy doing what you do. And then fill the other third of it with, you know, other things that bring you joy. Right?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah,
Dave Dougherty:
- At least that's been my philosophy.
Kristen Juve:
- I know, I keep like thinking about how, like, I don't want work to be a third of my life, though. But like, there's just no way that that… There are people, like the F.I.R.E. Movement, and like the Financial Independence, Retire Early is what F.I.R.E. stands for, and there are people who definitely are like, "Screw this, I'm not working my entire life away."
Props to them, that's amazing. I probably would have done that if I was going to be single my entire life, because I'd be like, "I can live in a van." But I don't want… I feel like there's got to be something, especially now in a pandemic, or post pandemic, or whatever this new future looks like, can't there be something where we go to like a four-day workweek, like a bunch of companies are doing overseas, and like actually do the things that we say that we should be doing to be like our whole human being, actually enjoy life?
Like, wouldn't that just frees us up to spend more money? So, wouldn't our economy be okay? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I just don't want to work 40 hours a week, to be honest.
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, now that's on the public record.
Kristen Juve:
- I mean, I will obviously, and I like…
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah. No, it's interesting to have the conversations, right? And I think it's important to have the conversations, because it is something that, you know, the rest of the society is dealing with right now.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- And everybody has to define what they're comfortable with, right? I know, for some people, just the idea of having to do your own taxes freaks them out, so they wouldn't.
Kristen Juve:
- That does freak me out, to be honest though.
Dave Dougherty:
- They wouldn't do it, right? Or, I've had a number of experiences recently, where some extremely capable people that I think would be super good at one thing, you know, I pitched the idea to them and they just are super anxious.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah.
Dave Dougherty:
- Talked about, you know, "Oh, why don't you go talk at a conference and spread your ideas?" And, you know, in front of a meeting, they're amazing. They speak confidently, they own the room, but then you say, public speaking at a conference, and it was like, they were three inches tall.
Kristen Juve:
- Doesn't translate.
Dave Dougherty:
- It's just like, whoa, you know. But for me, I like that. I like speaking on stage. I am crap at happy hours. But put me on stage and I'll be totally fine.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah, yeah. I remember the first time I saw you nervous, and I was totally like, "What the f**k?" I was like, "Dave's nervous? What? What? What is happening right now?" And I was so like… And it weirdly made me more confident, because I was like, "Okay, all right." I have no clue the situation we're in.
I can tell you later what the situation was. But like, I was like, "Huh, all right, cool." Like it was just a whole different like mindset shift. And I think when I hear you talk about this stuff, I think about like people having like a fixed mindset versus like a flexible mindset.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Kristen Juve:
- I think that really relates to like mental health. Like when I'm in a stage of like depression or anxiety, whatever, I have a very fixed mindset, and I'm not okay with being uncomfortable, right? Like, this is what it is, and there's no…that's just the way it is. That's the way it is. When I'm healthy, I'm like, "Oh, it could be this way or this way or this way or…" And I don't think that those two things are completely binary, I think there's a sliding scale.
I think, like, it's funny because you talked about that individual, I don't know who you're talking about, but I can have a few guesses. And I can...if they were just to think about it, as in, like, you do the exact same prep work as you would for your presentation, and you do the exact same this, this, this, it's the same process, you just get up on a stage instead of in front of a conference room, and there's a few more people in...
Like that's not any different, really, it's really not, but yet they have a very particular fixed mindset about that that they need to then achieve or whatever to, like, get there.
Dave Dougherty:
- The most unhappy people that I know, are the ones that are constantly saying, "This should be the way it should be." You know, all the shoulda, woulda, couldas.
Kristen Juve:
- But are they doing anything to get to that?
Dave Dougherty:
- Of course not.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah, that's the other piece of it.
Dave Dougherty:
- You know…
Kristen Juve:
- I've actually done things actively to try to get to not work 40 hours a week. I'm still working on that, obviously.
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Kristen Juve:
- And if obviously is not working toward…right now I'm going more towards the over 40 hours with the side gig stuff, but eventually there will be a pendulum swing, tirelessly. That is the goal.
Dave Dougherty:
- But I think for me, that's the thing that's interesting for me, right? Because playing guitar, being creative, you know, whether it's through the videos or creating things like this, or creative writing, even if I don't publish any of it, right, like technically I am a published poet, but…
Kristen Juve:
- I learn something every day. Did not know that you've written poems and that you're published. Okay, I mean, this makes sense, music, lyrics, lyrics are poems. This adds up. Okay, continue.
Dave Dougherty:
- So, but I just...I do it because I have to. Right? There's just that compulsion to create.
Kristen Juve:
- You know your why.
Dave Dougherty:
- Well, and I don't… To me, it doesn't feel like work, none of it feels like work.
Kristen Juve:
- That's the other piece.
Dave Dougherty:
- You know.
Kristen Juve:
- Although I don't…
Dave Dougherty:
- And you talk about, you know, the stuff that gets you excited, and do the things like the idea of going, you know, traveling to a conference, or… I did a social media breakfast where I had to drive through a ridiculous number of farm fields to get to this tiny town just to meet with the marketers in that town.
And like, that to me, it was super fun. I love that.
Kristen Juve:
- I was going to say, I don't think that I subscribe to the whole, like, do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life.
That's bull***t. Do what you love, you're still going to work, but you're probably going to love parts of it. And that probably is enough.
Dave Dougherty:
- Oh, there are a ton of musicians that hate touring. But that's where they make most of their money, so they have to, you know?
Kristen Juve:
- Right.
Dave Dougherty:
- Like, I know, a bunch of people who were like, "I did this to make music, not to sell T-shirts and beer." If it lets you do what you like to do, I don't see the problem. You know?
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah. It's kind of like that acceptance, and like, how do you work with it the best that you can? Kind of like acceptance of your mental health state, and how do you work with it the best you can?
Dave Dougherty:
- Right.
Kristen Juve:
- It's just...yeah, it's a part of it. We're all human beings.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yes. I think that's a good way to wrap it up at this point. If any of this resonates with you, you know, thanks for sticking around, thanks for listening. I hope it helps you know that you're not alone with whatever it is you're facing. And, you know, check the show notes, transcript on the website, we'll have any links to, you know, mental health resources, or the specific stuff that Kristen called out.
Kristen Juve:
- Yeah. And if you want have us dive into any more particular topics, or subtopics, please let us know, we're happy to do so.
Dave Dougherty:
- Yeah. And with that, appreciate all the feedback. Like, subscribe, share, you know, find us on...
Kristen Juve:
- Do all the things…
Dave Dougherty:
- …on Tik Tok, and YouTube, and Insta, and all those things. And we will see you in two weeks on the next episode. So, take care.
Kristen Juve:
- Bye.
